tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post7075389618123326029..comments2024-03-28T02:15:06.910-07:00Comments on Tossing It Out: The Greatest Short Story Ever Written?Arlee Birdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-59907040751820318852014-06-03T22:21:40.020-07:002014-06-03T22:21:40.020-07:00Forty -- Thank you for the great essay. You get a...Forty -- Thank you for the great essay. You get an A+ for your perceptive reading and observations. I agree with the things you said here. Mrs. Turpin's inner dialogue adds so much to the humor only because it all sounds so absurd to us. I think many of us label people just for convenience sake. It's dangerous when we take the labeling to an offensive extreme though.<br />Next topic tomorrow (Wednesday June 4) is movies. Be happy for you to submit your essay on that topic as well.<br /><br />Lenni--I think the Russians started sending animals into space in 1956 or after. They sent pigs, dogs, and monkeys before they sent the first man which would have been right around 1960 I believe. I'm guessing the story is taking place around 1959-1961 and they'd be talking about pigs going into space because that was the era of the Space Race between U.S. and USSR and it was all over the news. <br />"but you have heard of me" brings to mind Andy Warhol's statement about the 15 minutes of fame. Hopefully the Kardashians' 15 minutes is almost up.<br /><br />Lee<br />Arlee Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-80670365760394655982014-06-03T21:45:26.095-07:002014-06-03T21:45:26.095-07:00Lee-
Written in the 60s, but did it take place in...Lee-<br /><br />Written in the 60s, but did it take place in the 60s or the 40s? (Or the 50s, though why they'd still be talking about the pig in space then..., well, I suppose it's possible.)<br /><br />I agree that the reveal of the lesson learned in uncanny. <br /><br /><br />Ah yes, we remember what we are over exposed to. That's the "gift" of advertising- anyone and anything can be famous if there's enough funds. <br /><br />Or, as my favorite pirate said, "but you have heard of me."<br />http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii580/JLenniDorner/captain_jack_but_you_have_heard_of_me_zps0508c67d.jpg<br /><br />;)<br /><br />-J (who read The Great Gatsby in school three times for three different classes) <br />J Lenni Dornerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07961335286982498158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-69913264162690389732014-06-03T20:39:08.305-07:002014-06-03T20:39:08.305-07:00When you say "Tossing it out" you really...When you say "Tossing it out" you really mean it! I subscribe to your blog via email (not a G+ girl at all) so I have been mulling over your questions which have popped up in my email this week, this one and the BOTB. This one is more difficult. I confess that I don't think I read "Revelation" before today, and I thank you for the link! Astounding imagery with simple words. <br /><br />1) I just read it for the first time, so is it the best short story ever written? I would say that for me it's definitely a very very good short story. <br />2) I hesitate to give that title to any story. I know that's a wishy-washy answer, sorry. To say that would be to elevate a story above the boundaries of genre and culture, and I'm not ready to do that. <br />3) I am not a huge short story reader, but a few stick out in my mind : "The Gift of the Magi" by O. Henry, "The Necklace" by Guy de Maupassant, "The Tell-Tale Heart" by E.A. Poe, "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson, and "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card (There may still be some people who don't know that the novel and all its sequels came from one short story, published in Analog back in 1977. I first read it in an collection called "Unaccompanied Sonata and other Short Stories" which was published in 1981. That book had quite a few other good stories in it, too.) <br />4) I remember these stories partly because of their concise use of the language to create concrete images, like O'Connor did in "Revelation" - her use of dialect and choice of simple but descriptive words created vivid images of her characters. Good short stories don't waste space with any word which does not serve a specific purpose. But the most important thing about all of these is that "twist" at the end, the unexpected element that these authors leave as a parting gift to make their readers think about their initial perceptions in light of the "truth behind the curtain," that "I see dead people" moment, where the audience gasps together as they understand what happened. No further resolution is required.<br /><br />Ex credit: Yes, I just read "Revelation" for the first time and was struck by the masterful use of language and lablels...the ugly girl, the pleasant woman, the white trash, etc. I could picture them all quite easily. (side note: I notice about myself that I start to label people in this way when I am tired and unable to any longer see them as individuals...I know it's time to leave if I start thinking of people in labels like "Stinky feet guy" or "Muffin-top girl"...) In the story the other best thing was the inner monologue of Mrs. Turpin and her implausible choices. (If Jesus made me...) fighting against her own impulses to be like the lady (and the pharisee of Luke 18?) who thanks God that she is not like other people. (even if she wants to think of it as simple gratitude for her own blessings) It's a very thought-provoking monologue in the midst of this slightly humorous but somewhat dark setting. It now has the additional value of being a "period" piece complete with all the non-PC language that comes with it.<br /><br />I feel like I have just completed an essay test! Not that there's anything wrong with that, professor Arlee. Keep "tossing it out"... I like this essay test blog format, sir :-) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-59621643096300772062014-06-03T19:29:38.945-07:002014-06-03T19:29:38.945-07:00Lenni --Revelation was written around 1961 or so. ...Lenni --<i>Revelation</i> was written around 1961 or so. That accounts for a lot of the brash racist thinking though some of this has not changed. O'Connor was dealing with extremist thinking and contrasting types to show that deep down we're not all that different.<br />In the end she learns about equality in the Biblical sense and what she learns is far different that she had previously believed. I think the lesson is revealed in a remarkable way. <br /><br />You might also want to read O'Connor's <i>A Good Man Is Hard to Find</i> as it is a remarkable story with a striking ending.<br /><br />In the Kardashian sense of memorable I think the constant pummeling from the media is why we know these people at all. Likewise, a number of great works of literature are made memorable because we study them in school, talk about them, and they are so frequently referenced by others. Part of memorable comes from rote memory I think.<br /><br />Lee<br />Arlee Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-23141484516586226282014-06-03T18:41:01.920-07:002014-06-03T18:41:01.920-07:00ps- As for what makes one thing memorable and anot...ps- As for what makes one thing memorable and another not, I'm probably the wrong person to weigh in. I still have no idea why the Kardashian family is memorable. People keep telling me, but I still haven't figured it out. I knew a tree once that was very memorable. It got cut down so a cable could be run easier. No, I really am the worst person in the world to ask why anything is memorable. J Lenni Dornerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07961335286982498158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-17907238403712210902014-06-03T18:36:41.019-07:002014-06-03T18:36:41.019-07:00Alright, you made me curious, so I read it.
"...Alright, you made me curious, so I read it.<br /><br />"a big green glass ashtray full of cigarette butts and cotton wads with little blood spots on them."<br />I can hardly imagine how going to the doctor could possibly spread disease. *Captain Sarcasm*<br /><br />"it was one thing to be ugly and another to act ugly."<br />That was my favorite line.<br /><br />I can't help but wonder where Native Americans fall on Mrs. Turpin's class list. I'm slightly offended that "my kind" didn't even make it. And would all the tribes be lumped together- what am I saying, of course they would, but I'll go on anyway- or might a few get to be above white trash in her mind? <br /><br />"And it was not just that they didn't have anything. Because if you gave them everything, in two weeks it would all be broken or filthy or they would have chopped it up for lightwood. She knew all this from her own experience. Help them you must, but help them you couldn't."<br />That explains how nearly all people seem to feel about at least half of the population of the world. (Even those people who are the ones that the attitude is toward.)<br /><br />The story certainly became gripping when the ugly girl went off. It had me needing to know the reason. My first thought is a dead boyfriend. I'm typing this as a read, by the way.<br /><br />"There had even been a pig astronaut." <br />It wasn't until this line that I really noticed how 'young' this story must be. Somewhere in the 1940's I'd guess. <br /><br />It seems like she learns something of equality in the end. If only calling people a wart hog were all it took to change them. Amazing that the ugly girl had so much passion for equality. Was there a big movement at Wellesley College? J Lenni Dornerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07961335286982498158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-16805012261839673382014-06-03T17:45:01.379-07:002014-06-03T17:45:01.379-07:00Lenni-- Edgar Allen Poe was the master of short st...Lenni-- Edgar Allen Poe was the master of short story and he wrote some great ones for sure. In regard to a story "being memorable" that is part of the question. Why is the story memorable? What are primary components that make the story memorable? Off hand I can't think of many humorous short stories, but O'Connor uses a dark humor in many of her stories and I like that balance of humor and seriousness.<br /><br />Lee<br /> Arlee Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-76012501716090290432014-06-03T17:21:23.717-07:002014-06-03T17:21:23.717-07:00Now following you on GFC.
1- No, I haven't re...Now following you on GFC.<br /><br />1- No, I haven't read the story.<br /><br />2- I'm not sure about best. I recall one I read in college, I'm fairly certain it was called "We're Poor." I didn't like it the first time around, but it grew on me. The child in the story talks about his life, how much he likes his life, and how he sees his life. It isn't until after you think about it for a while that you realize the child character is poor. That they don't eat potato soup six nights a week because it is his father's favorite, but because it is all they can afford. It's the subtle reveal of reality, not spelling it out for the reader, that make it so wonderful. (I'd love to give you a link to it, but I can't seem to find one. A shame.)<br /><br />3- The Tell-tale Heart is my favorite. I love the characters.<br /><br />4- Being memorable is what makes it good. I'd say making me laugh makes it great, but I haven't read enough humorous short stories (outside of Reader's Digest, though the ones I'm thinking of tend to be under 100 words).<br /><br /><a href="http://jlennidornerblog.what-are-they.com/" rel="nofollow">@JLenniDorner</a>J Lenni Dornerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07961335286982498158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-41561609830003242052014-06-03T16:04:47.462-07:002014-06-03T16:04:47.462-07:00CW -- As in much great literature I think the endi...CW -- As in much great literature I think the ending here is left with some ambiguity in order for the reader to contemplate the message and come to their own conclusion. Mrs Turpin has at least a moment of "revelation"--or an understanding of Matthew 20:16 which talks about the last being first and the first last. Her encounter at the doctor's office has given her some insight about her perceptions of what she has believed and the way it should be. Whether or not she's a creature of habit and will go back to her old ways of thinking is not the important issue, but the fact that she has at least come to a recognition is the meaningful part of the story. And for me it was satisfactory because I have witnessed this character arc within the parameters of the story. <br /><br /><br /> If you want a maddening unresolved movie ending check out the John Sayles film <i>Limbo</i>. I was so befuddled by the ending and I know many have been frustrated by it. It took me several days to get it and when I did I realized that the open ending was brilliant. <br /><br />Often I think some of the best literature and films have ambiguous endings that we have to resolve for ourselves.<br /><br />Lee<br /> Arlee Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-29461658055521031792014-06-03T15:45:01.128-07:002014-06-03T15:45:01.128-07:00I mean, as in something that doesn't leave me ...I mean, as in something that doesn't leave me thinking a substantial part of the story got ripped out of the book. What did she get from the vision, if anything? Did it make her change her life? After listening to her internal debate the whole story, why cut it off at the end?<br /><br />I was disappointed in The Grapes Of Wrath for the same reason. It felt like there was a chapter and a half missing from an otherwise entertaining read. I'm not saying all problems need to be solved, but if I am to envision what happens next, I need a direction in which to go. I don't think it was too much to ask in either case to go just a little farther.CWMartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06798867734074134647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-91148917917668596642014-06-03T11:53:49.487-07:002014-06-03T11:53:49.487-07:00Jennifer -- This is a story that might improve for...Jennifer -- This is a story that might improve for you in subsequent readings. <br /><br />I just read "They're Made Out of Meat". Pretty strange.<br /><br />Lee<br /><a href="http://tossingitout.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Tossing It Out</a><br /><br />Arlee Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-56776839520448188672014-06-03T11:15:24.317-07:002014-06-03T11:15:24.317-07:00I just read the story and found it... interesting....I just read the story and found it... interesting.<br />I am not sure what to think of it. It was disturbing (slightly) but I think it had to do more with the main character's misconceptions and the like than the attack. I felt, to get the "protagonist" to the end, the story would have been better served by a different device than the girl just "going off".<br /><br />I don't really have a favorite short story (I don't have a favorite novel or poem, either) but "They're Made Out of Meat" stuck with me fairly well.Jennifer Ruth Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04699005759754946494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-53530252050496566662014-06-03T07:23:57.564-07:002014-06-03T07:23:57.564-07:00Chrys-- Sometimes though I think the depth of thou...Chrys-- Sometimes though I think the depth of thought in a short story is more important that ongoing action. Simplicity works well for me.<br /><br />Gary -- I like to hear a few examples of what you think is a good opening sentence of a short story. Are you saying "and" has been overused in the example I've offered or in all literature. Along with "the", "a", "of", and other similar words "and" is used a lot for good and obvious reasons.<br /><br />CW -- "Devil and Daniel Webster" is a chestnut I've haven't thought of in many years. I recall liking it when I was in junior high. Not sure what kind of pay-off you'd be looking for at the end of "Revelation", but I come away feeling like a spiritual millionaire at the end of the story. I'm not sure why you'd think a good story should leave you with a positive feeling at the end. Do you mean as in a happy ending?<br /><br />Lynda -- The complexity of simplicity is exactly what I see in O'Connor's writing.<br /><br />Barbara-- I think that's what I like about O'Connor. Her stories are rooted in Biblical messages without being overt about it.<br /><br />Susan Scott -- Your stated criteria are good elements of good stories. The storyteller should deal with concepts we understand and present them in new or interesting ways.<br /><br />Lee<br /><br /><br />Arlee Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-22295175358069412592014-06-03T05:39:30.584-07:002014-06-03T05:39:30.584-07:00Thanks for this Arlee - I'm not familiar with ...Thanks for this Arlee - I'm not familiar with the author. I agree that opening sentence is terrific! Time place and persons come alive immediately.<br />I enjoy short stories. I have on hand Hermann Hesse: Stories of Five Decades. Roald Dahl is a master of the contemporary short story eg. Switch Bitch.<br />How to answer all your questions ..<br />Oscar Wilde's:The Happy Prince moves me every time. What makes a short story good? I suppose the unexpectedness of it. Excellent writing that evokes appreciation for it. And of course the content that makes me reflect on it ..Susan Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12041548718544123557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-15410463113158063822014-06-02T17:27:43.194-07:002014-06-02T17:27:43.194-07:00I have not read this story. In fact I seldom read...I have not read this story. In fact I seldom read short stories anymore. And I don't think I could call any one story or book my favorite, unless it was the Greatest Story Ever Told: The Bible.<br />Barbara<br /><a href="http://lifefaithincaneyhead.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Life & Faith in Caneyhead</a> Barbara In Caneyheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06053601327400989802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-42163135365366827852014-06-01T16:49:32.988-07:002014-06-01T16:49:32.988-07:00I like that kind of writing because it captures th...I like that kind of writing because it captures the reader immediately and doesn't let go. It's deceptively simple. Truly, there is a lot of skill behind those words. Lynda R Young as Elle Cardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09975442291393246148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-72765430273847997872014-06-01T16:10:30.633-07:002014-06-01T16:10:30.633-07:001- I did just read the story. Not my genre, so I ...1- I did just read the story. Not my genre, so I don't think I would vote for it. Perhaps there is a subtle humor to it, but all I see are the many ways the Message can get mis-transmitted, and how many will be fooled by false interpretations. I would have liked to have seen a more extensive "pay-off" at the end.<br /><br />2. "Best" is far too subjective and far too wide ranging a group to judge. Even if I was as well-read as you, I would not venture beyond "favorite".<br /><br />3. Agh! Hoisted on my own petard! I would say perhaps The Devil and Daniel Webster, though it has been years since I read it.<br /><br /><br />4.If it catches my attention and gives me positive feelings in the end. I would say that a great story would have to take an important idea and make it clear where the author stands on it.CWMartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06798867734074134647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-50473960142986399742014-05-31T17:36:09.570-07:002014-05-31T17:36:09.570-07:00Hi Lee,
Delighted you liked that short story. I t...Hi Lee,<br /><br />Delighted you liked that short story. I think the opening line in the short story is too long. It, as far as I'm concerned, weakens it. The conjunction word, "and" is overused.<br /><br />I have no idea what I think is the best short story ever written. A short story that captures my attention from the opening line onwards, pleases me. <br /><br />Enjoy the rest of your weekend.<br /><br />Gary klahaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08613505424843475639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-13699834287193406682014-05-31T14:08:07.486-07:002014-05-31T14:08:07.486-07:001. I haven't read this story. But will add it ...1. I haven't read this story. But will add it to my TBR list!<br /><br />2. I've recently just started reading short stories, so I don't know of one that I'd call the best short story ever written as that is a huge title and there are many short stories out there I haven't read.<br /><br />3. Is it bad to say my own short story, Hurricane Crimes, is my favorite? Then I'll also say Fearless by Christine Rains. This is the most recent short story I've read and I'm calling it my favorite of the year so far.<br /><br />4. For me, a good short story has something happening on the first page and it doesn't let up with the action/suspense/romance (whatever the main ingredient is) until it ends, since a short story doesn't have long to hook a reader. <br /><br />A great story has engaging characters and emotion.Chrys Feyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11955009490266358041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-71367846196607000512014-05-31T13:07:43.449-07:002014-05-31T13:07:43.449-07:00GB -- The story you mention certainly has a provoc...GB -- The story you mention certainly has a provocative title. I agree that it helps when you can identify in some way with the characters or have a familiarity with those types.<br /><br />Damyanti -- I read the Hempel story and living in Los Angeles I recognized many of references. In fact I have visited Al Jolson's grave and explored that cemetery. A lot of famous names there.<br /><br />Laura -- It would actually be difficult to say any one story is the best since there are different standards that we judge by.<br /><br />Mary -- Thank you for reading and giving me your thoughts on the story.<br /><br />Sue -- On the contrary I find short stories easier because of the lesser investment of time.<br /><br />Dawn -- My time on the computer certainly interferes with the amount of time I spend reading.<br /><br />Ida -- If a story sticks with me then I feel like the author has made a worthy accomplishment.<br /><br />Kelly - I can eat one Lay's potato chip more easily than I can pick one favorite story, movie, song, or anything similar.<br /><br />Lee<br />Arlee Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-49664194091736572472014-05-31T12:37:05.444-07:002014-05-31T12:37:05.444-07:00I'd certainly include it in a list of top shor...I'd certainly include it in a list of top short stories by American writers, though there are some I personally prefer (Hawthrone's "Rappacini's Daughter," Willa Cather's "Paul's Case," Eudora Welty's "Why I Live at the P.O." and a slew of stuff by Fitzgerald and Hemingway. Oh gosh, and John Cheever. And Raymond Carver.). Open up the door to non-American writers, and there's so much great stuff by Kafka, Chekhov, du Maupassant. Don't know if I could pick.Kelly Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01752857506190488860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-3531475016405338362014-05-31T07:07:18.412-07:002014-05-31T07:07:18.412-07:00Hi again Lee - Thanks for recommending the story -...Hi again Lee - Thanks for recommending the story - I loved it though (just like a short story should) it has me pondering many things about that era and the writer herself. It ticks all your boxes and does what so few short stories do for me, left me satisfied. So many leave me feeling like I want to know more... <br />Ida Thoughthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15479961947050289284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-50101803673012577392014-05-30T23:56:15.813-07:002014-05-30T23:56:15.813-07:00I have not read this story. I find short stories h...I have not read this story. I find short stories hard work as I have to get into each one. Once I have started a novel it is easy to keep reading. The short story I remember from school is "The machine stops". I do not remember the author. Have you read it? Sue (trying for the second time to post this comment, which I did not bother to copy the first time.) :-( Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-1109213149605439522014-05-30T22:06:23.683-07:002014-05-30T22:06:23.683-07:00I read Revelation for the first time tonight. I l...I read Revelation for the first time tonight. I love the description - it really helps place the reader in the story. <br />Thanks for sharing it with me. <br />Mary <br /><a href="http://www.mary-sky.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">The View from my World</a>MShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05847657888731338351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-149224757183756660.post-22379015085912849952014-05-30T21:24:27.491-07:002014-05-30T21:24:27.491-07:00I've read many, many short stories, and since ...I've read many, many short stories, and since I like so many of them, I can't seem to pick a best ever! I feel that way about books. I have many favorites, but I don't think I could ever pick an all-time greatest.<br /><br />From a writer's view, I like Ernest Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants". Its subtly, imagery, symbolism, and succinctness is masterful. "Cathedrals" and "What We Talk about When We Talk about Love" by Raymond Carver and "The Yellow Wallpaper" by Charlotte Perkins Gilman stand out to me as well. I don't know if any of those are the best ever, but they are certainly short stories every writer should read.<br /><br />And I agree that Flannery O'Connor's short stories are excellent.<br /><br />Happy reading and writing! from <a href="http://lauramarcella.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Laura Marcella @ Wavy Lines</a>Laura S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13934230198562773803noreply@blogger.com